Gun Control Revisited from VDrums closed thread.

[TAKnipe]

A TALE OF TWO CITIES AND THEIR GUN LAWS
We take you now to Morton Grove, Illinois. It's a suburb north of Chicago. In June 1981, Morton Grove passed an ordinance banning handguns. Citizens of Morton Grove were allowed to keep their shotguns and rifles, but they were required to store their handguns outside the village limits or at a licensed gun club. Out of a population of 25,000, about ten people actually surrendered their handguns to police in the months after the law went into effect.
Then there's the city of Kennesaw, Georgia. You've probably heard me talk about Kennesaw a few times on the air. In response to Morton Grove's handgun ban, Kennesaw passed an ordinance requiring heads of households to "maintain a firearm" and ammunition "to provide for the civil defense" and to "protect the general welfare of the City and its inhabitants."
So...what's happened in the 20 years since Kennesaw and Morton Grove passed their gun laws?
Hardly anything has happened to the crime rate in Morton Grove.
Kennesaw, on the other hand, saw its crime rate drop like a rock. The rate of crime in Kennesaw is about four times LOWER than the state and national rates. Detective Cpl. Craig Graydon told NewsMax.com, "Violent crime is almost nonexistent in residential neighborhoods." According to the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports, burglaries went from 54 in 1981 (the year before the gun ordinance) to 36 in 1999. This is even more remarkable when you consider that Kennesaw's population has exploded from 5,242 to more than 19,000 in that period of time.
NewsMax.com then asked Handgun Control Inc. for comment. A spokeswoman there declined to respond, saying that the folks who could address the issue were tied up in a news conference.
The fact is, they won't be able to refute the numbers. Statistics don't lie. Kennesaw is a safer place because of widespread ownership of handguns. Morton Grove's crime rate remains essentially unchanged, in part because residents are prohibited from owning handguns for self-defense.
Tell this to an anti-gunner and they'll probably pop a fuse.

[OverLord]

I am anti-gun and I didn't pop a fuse. I am also a realist. It's not law-abiding citizens that are the problem. If the crooks are the only ones with guns, that's a recipe for disaster. Or at least a high crime rate.

If this country didn't have a lot of guns in the first place, like England, we would be having a different discussion. But it is so easy to acquire a gun in this country, both legally and illegally, that it is foolish to think that bans would change that.

Crime preventation needs a two-pronged attack. We need to deter would-be criminals and change social conditions so a criminal life is less attractive.

[TAKnipe]

I am pro gun but choose not to have any. I agree more with your poit Michael. There is never one solution almost every problem needs a multi pronged solution. T

When issues are discussed without emotion almost always it leads to where we agree rather than where we differ. I find that amongst friends that issues can be discussed without flames and arrows just talking. Thats why I love this place. ;D

[WildWes]

I'm pro gun and do own many.

As I type, there's a Colt 45acp within reach, just in case someone has the ability to by-pass my two sheperds and attempts a home invasion. I've worked in corrections for twenty-one years at seven prisons, interacting with just about every type of convicted felon out there and my father is a retired state trooper. Throughout the years, we have both experienced examples of how bad the worst can be and there's a good chance some of these individuals now live/work close to you. Wes will always have guns.

PS: Oh yeah, have a nice day. ;D

[kevincool87]

Whoa.. I'd better not piss you off :D

[drum4ever]

I am pro gun rights (though I don't want a law requiring them either). I own a couple. I don't feel a desperate need to own them but I do feel a need to preserve the right to own them.

[CaTaPulT]

I live in Canada where the criminals have rights and the victims don't..... dumbass legal system here!
Take care

Regards: >>>> Jack <<<<

[OverLord]

It is interesting to look at the early versions of the 2nd Amendment. It is clear that the intent was:
1. Every citizen should have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.
2. The purpose was to have a ready militia in times of foreign invasion and insurrection.

Even during the creation of the bill of rights, there was controversy over what a well-regulated militia was. Here is the second version:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.

Even are forefathers didn't want such a rigidly defined definition of a militia. Militia meant a pool of able bodied armed citizens to draw from in case of military need.

And what does well-regulated mean. To the composers of the Bill of Rights it simply meant "prepared."

If you restate the 2nd Amendment in modern terms it would be:

It is important to have a prepared pool of citizens to defend the State, so everyone has the right to own and bear arms.

It was very important to the framers that ownership was a Right so as to prevent not only foreign incursion, but tyranny of the government.

So, I maybe a namby-pamby liberal who believes that gun ownership in general is a dangerous thing, but I fully realize the founding fathers meant what they said in the 2nd amendment.

[drum4ever]

Nicely stated.
...and I agree gun ownership can be a dangerous thing but, as the constitutional framers put forth, so is the temptation for removal of that right.

[TAKnipe]

It is interesting to look at the early versions of the 2nd Amendment. It is clear that the intent was:
1. Every citizen should have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms.
2. The purpose was to have a ready militia in times of foreign invasion and insurrection.

Even during the creation of the bill of rights, there was controversy over what a well-regulated militia was. Here is the second version:

A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms.

Even are forefathers didn't want such a rigidly defined definition of a militia. Militia meant a pool of able bodied armed citizens to draw from in case of military need.

And what does well-regulated mean. To the composers of the Bill of Rights it simply meant "prepared."

If you restate the 2nd Amendment in modern terms it would be:

It is important to have a prepared pool of citizens to defend the State, so everyone has the right to own and bear arms.

It was very important to the framers that ownership was a Right so as to prevent not only foreign incursion, but tyranny of the government.

So, I maybe a namby-pamby liberal who believes that gun ownership in general is a dangerous thing, but I fully realize the founding fathers meant what they said in the 2nd amendment.


Welcome to the Conservative Party Mr. Render!!! ;D

[OverLord]

I like to think of myself as the thinking man's moderate. ;D

[evil1rox]

I'm very much a moderate on this. (or conservative...? depends on how you look at it.)

I don't own a handgun and probably won't. Shotgun...yup. I think hand guns should be gone, but hunting rifles (Sorry...automatics are NOT for hunting...) are just fine.

I don't think anyone should be forced to carry or not carry. I think all people should be allowed to own and keep in their house a rifle. (not including felons...sorry...you checked that one at the door when you robbed the bank/stole from an old lady/raped/murdered/wrote one to many bad checks etc)

I mean how many murders have been commited by hunting rifles really? I would venture to guess less than 1 percent. Most people that own hunting rifles... are hunters.

E1R

[Hope Drums]

Being ex-law enforcement I am very pro-gun, I have actually investigated incidents where homeowners have shot at would-be burglers and I can tell you that a 2nd attempt in those areas was unheard of!

Texas is probably a little different when it comes to the 2nd amendment, we use it! We have a state malitia, called the Texas State Guard. These are a great group of people and were readily available when Katrina and Rita hit. They were armed and unarmend helping out in the shelter with supplies and to help support us (the sheriff's office) with civil unrest. I talked to several guys who worked at different shelters w/o the Guard and it was rough, I guess the presence of someone in fatigues with an AR15 tends to change people's mind about acting a fool! ;D

Wes, you have German Shepherds? Beautiful dogs! I have one myself!

[OverLord]

I have a German Shepherd too!
http://www.michaelrender.com/Pictures/GermanShepherd.jpg

[WildWes]

Wes, you have German Shepherds? Beautiful dogs! I have one myself!

Brian, I have a dutch sheperd (brindle) and a sheperd/rotty mix (best of both worlds). Both were rescued by me from the humane society. I recently had the opportunity to pick-up a pure german sheperd puppy, but I already have three dogs to contend with - hahaha. One photo shows the knee surgery I had for the dutch sheperd after she blewout her ACL. She's my perimeter patrol and protector of the family. The photo of both dogs is several years old, as the mix lying on the ground now weighs 100 lbs. and is taller than the dutch sheperd.

I was born in Germany Michael, but was never a German shepherd.

[Axe_Grinder]

I too believe in the right to keep arms... My father always said, never pull a gun unless you intend to fire and never fire unless you intend to kill. Neither of these actions should ever be taken unless it is a means of protection. Hopefully I will never know what it feels like to take a life. But, if it comes down to me/my loved ones.... If I have a means, it wont be us.


What is this woofie thing? Take, leave.....


-Axe-

[WildWes]

It's from the book, "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom" that Michael (Overlord) directed us to Ron.

This future history book takes place in the 22nd century, mostly in Walt Disney World. Earth now lives under the "*****un Society", in which rejuvenation and body-enhancement have made death obsolete, material goods are no longer scarce, and everyone is granted basic rights that in our present age are mostly considered luxuries. This abundance has brought about the end of labor and money, and the only thing that makes one person worth more than anyone else is "Whuffie", a constantly updated rating that measures how much esteem and respect other people have for you. (Wikipedia credit)

Whuffie given to Ron

[Axe_Grinder]

Thanks for the whuffie Wes. Not to mention the explaination.

Back-atcha with the whuffie thing-a-ma-jiggie ;)

[ghostman]

Ahhh.. that's where whuffies come from.. I was wondering.. I figured it was a 'atta-boy' thing or similar.

I am on the fence on guns.. I own rifles (but I didn't buy them), I don't hunt, and I don't have the desire to. Hand guns intrigue me, but I've only shot them a few times at ranges. I totally believe that guns should be in the hands of responsible citizens, as a measure to protect us from personal, national and governmental invasion.. It's how we determine any term around responsible is what bothers me...

Anyway, my 2 cents.. now I gotta go find / read that book.

[dschrammie]

I've never owned a real gun...nor have I ever shot one. I've held a couple of guns in my life, but never loaded. I'm not in favor of gun control laws because those laws do absolutely nothing to keep illegal guns off the streets.
I don't put a lot of faith in statistics of any sort because statistics can always be directed toward the point a person is trying to make.
I simply wish people would stop killing each other.

there are, of course, many things that I wish people would stop doing...and unfortunately it'll just keep happening...which makes me sad.

[TAKnipe]

Hey David, I have alot of wishes also, one is for people to stop killing and the other is for people to stop voting for Democrats but I am afraid that neither will stop any time soon.